Another thing about me is that I have worked in the journalism tech industry for uh the better part of a decade uh before moving on to uh working on open social protocols, and part of my journey there was actually seeing uh the things that reporters and news organizations were going through and realizing that some of the change that I wanted to affect could not be done solely by working with journalism institutions. And so uh I ended up moving upstream into working in tech companies and social media because that sort of fundamental substrate ended up being so important for the uh foundation for where the publishing industry and uh journalists um have gone.
Um and in that span of time have uh linked up and met with some uh fascinating folks who are thinking about what this next era of uh journalism creation looks like and how people are connecting with communities. Um I'm very happy to have uh with us today uh Justin Bank and uh Lauren Zack. Um Justin uh is the co-founder of Journalism Atlas. Um and if you saw your his talk earlier this morning, it was awesome. Also iterates very quickly. Um it was great to see a slide of uh Aaron who had given a talk immediately beforehand um in there too.
We can just do things, it's great. Um and uh journal journalism Atlas is a wayfinder for uh the future of news media designed to connect audiences with independent creators who are telling the stories they choose with purpose for the communities they cultivate and serve, which sounds very well aligned with the things that we talk about here at this conference and in this community. Um and he's also previously led digital initiatives at the Washington Post, NPR, and the New York Times. Um so uh it's been fun chatting with you about uh where the industry's come from and where it could potentially go.
Um and uh Lauren um is one of the co-founders of Local News International, uh, which you can find on YouTube, uh TikTok and Instagram, uh, many fun places, um, and was also deputy head of video at the Washington Post and oversaw the posts, TikTok and YouTube channels uh uh uh in an early phase of news organizations really grappling with these media. Um so uh and you you also have a background at PBS and looking at digital things uh there as well. So very excited to have you both here. Um are there any things that y'all want to open with?
I'm gonna actually toss it to you really quickly. Uh yeah, thanks, uh Ted. Um I guess I'll just quickly say I think I see some faces from when I was here earlier this morning, uh, but just to kind of reorient anybody who wasn't here, uh hi. My name is Justin. Uh, I'm very, very happy to be here. Uh I am a journalist by training, worked in newsrooms for 20 years actually, more than 20 years now. It kind of creeps up on you. Um it's been amazing to be working on these newer initiatives, thinking about independent journalism at this moment in time when there are so many institutions which have shrunk or under distress.
That was a lot of the theme of my talk this morning. A thing that I'm really excited to talk about next to my friend Lauren is what it means for all the journalists who are making journalism, as well as anyone who does not identify as a journalist but is creating journalism or high fidelity information. And Aaron's talk this morning wonderfully sets this up. How do you support people who are trying to create high quality news in the modern era? Uh I have found myself in the last few months and years gravitating towards protocol-based thinking. Really excited to be here and connect with other creators, builders, doers, operators, thinkers who want to create that world.
And I'm so glad Lauren's here because of her crazy journey that is six, seven months in of making an independent media business out of a legacy place and all the stuff she is learning in real time every day, every week, right? Yep. Uh yeah, thank you all for having me. Delighted to be here and thank you for the introduction. Um we've been at it at local news international since August when we took buyouts from the Washington Post after creating um quite a large audience on TikTok and YouTube around a creator named Dave Jurgensen. If you're familiar with him, he's the more familiar face of local news international than I am.
Um my career has been spent at traditional organizations, PBS and the Post and the Smithsonian before that, begging them to think about new audiences and developing content for them around audiences that probably aren't interacting with them in in any other way. And we decided to go independent just because of a frustration and a sadness that these organizations are not ready to support these new endeavors. Yeah, and I think that that's an amazing segue because what I really um am interested in hearing about is really the mindset of uh journalism creators who are thinking about this particular moment in uh an era where you know publishing has certainly changed with the internet and successive generations of technology and where audiences are.
That has really shifted the landscape of what publishing is and also how that serves um uh journalism creators and people who are doing out uh both uh reporting news but also bringing it to audiences. Um and that business dynamic, I think is one of the most rapidly changing things, and as uh people are about products, new products could be built, um, ways that um creators and audiences connect, um, thinking about that reality of where these businesses are now and the uh needs and incentives that they've got as we think about other types of futures, I think is really critical.
Um and so I'm super curious actually about the story of how y'all launch and the way that you're thinking about the both the content that you create and the the way that you want to connect with uh the audiences that you're serving. Yeah, um we launched knowing that we would have to put together sort of a multi-faceted business, and that is proven true, even though we're still quite new at this. Um, but the opportunity really is comes from the way that the post wasn't able to support us in this way, and that we can be multifasted.
We can bring in sponsorships, we can monetize our audience directly, we can sell merchandise to them correct uh directly, we can seek um philanthropic support. Um we have a consulting piece of our business as well. So it really is sort of thinking broadly about how we can ignite this audience that we have built that has this kind of parasocial relationship with our journalist, and they want to support him and his work. Um, and we're able to do that in a much more meaningful way now that we're independent. And Justin, have you seen that as a pattern with other creators as well as you speak um with people about the journalism atlas and the way that they're kind of going out in the world.
Yeah, wildly so. Uh one of the reasons I'm here. Uh, you know, uh this morning I told these anecdote of being at the Washington Post in 2011 when the Edward Snowden story breaks and all of the interesting parts about the air gap computer, about Bart Gelman coming to the post of Marty Barron making sense of how we would, you know, get the story out there of us having to self-aggregate to win audiences back from Google as the aggregators beat us. And I told the story about Marisa Cabis in the last 18 months breaking scoops like crazy on Bluesky and creating this new version of a funnel, right?
Those are two very clean examples of an individual creator journalist from a bygone era at this point, 15 years ago, having brand to protect them and yet still fighting to figure out the fidelity information and the relationship with the audience, then Maurice's more recent example. As we can't ask actually before if I speak about this, what I find even more as I'm listening to crazy. I mean, Lauren launched six, seven months ago, and I still can't stop asking you questions about how you build your business. If you go to journalism atlas.com, we have a certain taxonomy of here's these creators, here's the platforms they're on, here's their geographies, here's their topics, here's their subtopics.
We have other kind of prototypes where putting in front of funders, putting in front of philanthropists, putting in front of um publishers to say, look at these patterns. You know, actually we're gonna be in Chicago at ONA, the online news association conference, um tomorrow, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh I think we're gonna release this thing if we get the final go ahead. Where we went into Chicago working uh on behalf of the philanthropists, the philanthropic group press forward to say let's map your ecosystem. The amount of um uh of like ethnic groups of like immigration communities who have these creators on TikTok who then have private WhatsApp groups was a thing we found there.
We're still doing research. I don't know if we're gonna have it all wrapped up in time for Monday or not. But all the ways in which there's different models that are based on different platforms that like what Lawrence said of late, we know we're gonna be here to reach people, we know we can reach here to be here to monetize people, we know we can be here to do a version of RD of trying to you know ru rough out where else we'll kind of reach people at. It's an incredible series of portfolios of what news creators are doing to build, to reach and to monetize.
I think that that's such an interesting segue to a sort of broader topic about um when when you talk often about software platforms and protocols and things like that, there's a lot of like discussion about, oh well, we just people need people to exclusively use our platform to switch from some other platform to our platform. And umce you go up a strata from that and you're thinking about people who are community organizers, community leaders, their strategies around how they're connecting with audiences, the affordances different tools give them, I think is a really important thing for people to people to think about.
And I'm really curious about um uh how say local news international is thinking about their presence and where they where you feel you need to be and where you would like to be. Yeah, the notion of exclusivity actually I think makes a lot of sense for most industries, but maybe not for the news for a couple of reasons. First of all, philosophically, we believe we want everyone to see our content. So we want to put it in the broadest possible place places we can because we want to be sort of democratic in that way. Um we know though that we can monetize people in different ways because of that.
We sort of want to reach the broadest audience, but ultimately we want to build fans over time. That's kind of been the goal Dave and I had in mind since we launched in 2019 is like do the news, build fans, and then you can do something with those fans. Um you can monetize those fans, but ultimately we want to deliver the news in any way in any place where the audience is. It doesn't mean we need to be everywhere, but we need to be sort of in the broadest possible audience grab. It's classic topo funnel, I guess, traditionally speaking.
Yeah, I think the only thing I'll I mean again, I I could listen to Lauren talk about this forever. It is endlessly fascinating with me to think about people who every day wake up and say, I'm gonna think about the news, what stories are in our pocket, what have we been looking for the were the longer term stories? I think especially this community, especially again, just reflecting on Erin's amazing you know speech this morning, um, you know, hearing the conversations that kind of been going on in this room, talking about everything from micropayments to extraction to uh what is the purpose of a platform, you know, in this time and space, you know, in March of 2026, we're atproto is and what I've been hearing these last couple days, stuff like the leaflet crew, thinking through like how do we kind of like graph onto something here to torture a word, I guess.
Ums flows all day every day. It just you know, Lauren wakes up every day and has a million ideas, she's so good with Dave, you guys figure out we'll do this, we'll do this, we'll do this. And if we want to get to this, that's actually a four-day thing, we'll kind of get there. That's in the guts of a news person. Um as I think about the builders, as I think about the community organizers, I think what people were thinking about paid uh feeds or the other ideas we can have heard around here, the opportunity to work with news creators who are independently trying to do anything and to grab the daily conversation and port them over, like Lauren's saying to a community that you can turn to fans to do something.
I mean it wildly exciting. Um I'm so curious actually on that note. Um, are there things that you feel unconstrained about or approaches that you can take now that you uh feel like you couldn't take? And and we we don't necessarily have to personalize it that much, but I think about the difference between being supported by a publisher and being within a publisher versus other strategies that you can take once you're independent as a creator because some of this is like being able to take novel approaches and connect with audiences in ways that you know aren't like read the front page of a newspaper, even the concept of a newspaper, right?
For sure. And it's mostly format driven at this point. Again, we've only been at this for eight months, but I think we were very boxed into the format we could uh perform in uh at the post for various reasons. Everyone's worked for a big company and you're on your team and you do what you do. Now we can make anything for any platform in any format, any length, any tone we want. And if it doesn't work, then tomorrow we'll change course and we'll try something different. So that's why we're really excited. We'll we'll have long form right now.
We operate strictly in short form, we publish five days a week. Um is coming soon, which was something that like to do that at the post would have taken probably three years and 15 different teams and you know, a lot of hemming and hawing and disagreeing. So we're just gonna do it. And if people in three months don't like it, then we'll pivot something different. Um we have a newsletter, which again was something like we could not have done at the post, and we just heck, why not start a newsletter. So I think um flexibility is the main difference.
I'm so curious um about if you have a particular framework that you use to think about experimentation. Uh one of the reasons why um I've been really excited about the atproto community is the speed of iteration and being able to try new things that opens up news opportunities. But then the question is I I kind of have always joked that journalists are actually kind of like mini VCs, but they invest with their time, right? And so journalists are very willing to go very deep on something they have strong confidence in, but otherwise catching their attention is very difficult.
Um and so um like you know, you you can say that you have investments in current uh platforms, but uh with the opportunities afforded to you, um, are you guys looking for uh particular types of connections with audience or a certain size of audience and things like that? Size, no, I would say connection, absolutely. We're looking to build this sort of loyal fan, as I mentioned before. So that takes time, right? That's not gonna happen overnight. That's not gonna happen if hey, everyone loves a viral hit. We love something that goes viral, but ultimately we want to build a fan that's going to subscribe and then buy a t-shirt and then leave a comment and then maybe monetize in some other kind of way.
Um and that, you know, uh gosh, I'll pick a random time, not random, but uh six months, let's say. I think that's a fair time, maybe even longer, maybe a year to try something to really sort of see if you can get traction and build fans that will come back week to week, day to day and sort of stick with you. I think it takes a while. Actually, would you talk about you know, hearing Ted's question, um, you know, I'm obviously a fan of L and I and a longtime consumer from before we worked together to when we work together to whatever we are now.
Can you talk a little bit about Dave's coverage of young men in the United States and just kind of the success he's had? Yeah. So our audience is predominantly young men across every platform. We publish right now on YouTube, TikTok, Beehive, Instagram, LinkedIn and Facebook, and Snapchat. And across the big three, let's call it YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, the audience is entirely male and not entirely. I'm sorry. Mostly male and largely under the age of 35, which is an audience that is attractive to a lot of folks right now for a lot of different reasons. And what we have found about them really is that they are deeply, deeply engaged with the news, which is something that a lot of research has proven otherwise.
And that's because we use comedy for the most part when appropriate to tell the news. It's a lot like when I grew up with the day the daily show that folks said they wanted to interact with the daily show, but they weren't interested in getting their news from any other traditional method. We're seeing that quite a lot now with Dave's fans. And the way that they interact with him and engage with his content is so thoughtful and so deep that it's pretty surprising. We use our newsletter a lot to get email response to topics in the news to do deeper analysis than we're able to do in short form video.
And we saw this in a particularly meaningful way after the murder of Charlie Kirk. We've seen it again around topics around this word patriotism. We've seen it again recently around Louis Thoreau's documentary on the Manosphere, where we've engaged our audience in this, and they have written these lengthy, thoughtful, surprising emails back to Dave about the way that they think about politics, about how they think about their worldview. And we've really seen that as sort of the foundation of kind of our philosophy of how we deliver the news. If I can pitch in this room, because it's been so inspiring to be here, and I love the goose and the we can do things.
I God, I want to believe that. Like now's the time. You know, I'm still protocol pilling myself and understanding where I am in the world, understanding who I'm talking to, and you know, I've tried to read histories and read in and Ted, you've been amazing. Chad's been amazing, kind of helped me understand a lot more about this world. As I've seen some of the the early stage development of applications about use cases, about people building things, stuff like Gray, stuff like Sill that tries to aggregate, that tries to kind of have that human algorithmic thinking. I uh studying independent creator journalists, studying Lauren's team's work and all the people in journalism atlas, talking to people, just asking questions, trying to report it out with my you know repertorial instincts.
I screenshot things like crazy. Like I'm like, oh, this is interesting. And I think that's certain things, like especially uh creators talking to their audiences, like Lawrence describing with the email. I don't see that, but I talked to you guys, I have a sense of that. That's why I prompted you. But I do see what you guys do publicly. And what Dave does publicly to engage with his fan bases in YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok is fidelity. It is community building, it is extraordinary. And he's swinging upstream on those algorithmic spaces because he knows there's value there.
If there are spaces that would build for the people like Dave's of the world, if you can imagine some of the early stage applications being built, whether it is on atproto far away from Bluesky or closer to the daily news stream, to have creators like Dave who are willing to do the work who see the value of the Thousand True Fans and more and want to go somewhere, that's the innovation I would love to see. Is like what do technologists want to build that will help do that middle substrate level that we've kind of been all missing, you know, kind of like leaning towards today.
What does it mean to find people with a genuine audience, the Dave, the Marisa Cabases to say, you've got a breaking news story, Marisa, you have an investigation, let's figure out what your leaflet looks like, what your playbook looks like for a story you just broke that you know you're owning for a week. Dave, you you know you are on you know the male loneliness epidemic, you've been doing this in your email or whatever. You're gonna launch an enterprise project, you are leading the conversation. Where's the tooling where you're gonna help bring people into a place where there's greater engagement and value?
You want to say anything? No, leads it. Um Yeah, there's so many threads to follow uh within that, and which is uh excellent. And um I want to touch on two uh in the following order. Um I think that um when it comes to building an audience, um, and even when you're uh talking about the um sort of strategy for experimentation and things like that, right? Um when you talk about creator landscapes, uh people typically break things down into what's your top of funnel, how do you do discovery, and then like what's your monetization strategy and retention and things like that.
And I think that there are uh interesting examples within just the creator space like uh dropout.tv, which I find super fascinating in terms of their strategies in terms of having a really really effective clipping strategy and being everywhere, but being able to pull everybody back to their platform and engage people deeply there. There are folks like Hank Green who have talked about like creating businesses that generate more uh value than they capture. And uh one of my questions around all these things is how replicable do we think that these models actually are? And is it possible for journalists to succeed in uh the current landscape, or is this a temporary uh position that we're trying to figure out uh to get to the next thing.
Yeah, I'll just the strong, strong answer, which Lauren will give so much voice to is this better be temporary because it's not sustainable. Like 500%. We um we did so we've done mapping like local communities. Uh the very clear signal we get back is for every creator journalist for every you know um full-time creator, whether they identify as a journalist or not, but they're creating that kind of valuable information who can go at full time. There are 80 who don't. So this is a number of people who are doing fractional work who are doing side hustles.
Now, in a certain way it's beautiful. You know, there are people in the community who are experts in a certain subject or have a professional tradecraft. Uh in DC, we have this wonderful uh creator who is a uh a realtor who does uh historical tours of the DC area, Joe Himley, who is DC famous and it works for his business and it all you know market it all kind of works great. There's too many people like Marisa and Dave and Lauren who need to see other things being built and are surviving with their wits and their brilliance and their pretenatural talent, but we are in a scary place if there's not more support coming their way.
Yeah, ditto. Amazing. And and uh this is certainly things um something top of mind in the Atmosphere as well in terms of which things can we create, how what what's their sort of collective power, I think is another way to put it. Um and then also how does this grow and connect with other audiences in other places? Um and speaking of which, I mean you you mentioned comedy, and I think that this is a really interesting topic too on a on a couple of fronts. Both how does comedy sub uh succeed within the sort of social landscape.
And then also I think the application of news is a really interesting topic. Um and you know, we've reached a point where like the SF standard has a comedy correspondent, which I think is amazing and blew my mind when I first saw it. But the use of other tools or other ways to connect to people seem like a really interesting and effective way to get out of like, oh, news is broccoli, right? Which I think is one of the uh context and analogies that people think about when they think about the news. Um is that something that you guys build into your scripts, or are you thinking about other strategies and ways to connect with audiences as well.
That's the way that Dave communicates. Hopefully L and I becomes you know a network of other Dave's and every other Dave would not necessarily need to use comedy as their sort of mode of communication. But the way that the reason that it works for him, we think actually goes back again to who his audience is. Like this audience of young men has built their lives around very dark humor and sort of using it as a coping mechanism. I mean, we see this broadly online, right? So he has found this way to sort of do it in a way that captures their attention, even if the news is often so bleak that they don't want to look at it in any other way.
Um his particular type of humor is not very dark. It's actually quite joyful and he he often says he likes to sort of be the character that asks the dumb thing or sort of suggests he doesn't explain it so the other characters around him can explain it to him. So that's quite joyful compared to a lot of other dark comedy in this moment. Um but we find have found that it has allowed people that say, I just can't handle the news right now to really be welcomed into our space and then to stick with us. I'll just you know to borrow from Aaron earlier that Dave has an amazing register in series of registers.
Um amazing. Uh I'm interested in whether anybody has questions as well. We have about six minutes left. Would anyone like to throw to questions?
Thanks. Um Yeah, I had uh a question you mentioned earlier when you were talking about the um your start uh separating from the post and the kind of freedoms that that gave you. Um and I hear a lot like we're I think there's a lot of developers here and we're building infrastructure and the protocol around um a lot of the exciting stuff of like individual uh content creators and and media and um then we go back to like the uh the support side of things and um kind of bringing people more to together. And I was wondering what uh thoughts you had on like the transition from you know the like the the post and and and organizations that we have today um towards the the kind of what your ideal future would look like and uh how do we build for that on a on an application or protocol or infrastructure level.
Yeah, thank you for the question. Um I think y'all are primed for that opportunity in the way that a lot of traditional organizations are not because we weren't able to see the business of the post in many aspects sort of reckon with this idea that we had an audience that was not interested in the website or the text product. And we saw that from a subscription side, from a merchandising side, certainly from an ad and sponsorship side. So thinking about the ways that these audiences actually want to support the kind of content that independent creators are putting out there is essential.
Like it's no longer can you sell a subscription to the website that will get you around a paywall if you are a fan of this TikToker. Like those two things do not reckon with one another anymore. And I think that's the opportunity of you all is to think about what kinds of business support actually honor these audiences where they already are. And I would just nudge the word parasocial, which I, you know, Lauren said earlier, which is a lot of people's relationship with Dave. Um and I heard it in the previous panel talking about music and artists, but like the idea of fandom and parasocial is I think a wonderful thin layer that connects the concept of any type of creation and community that news is moving towards because of the destruction of these institutions and talented creators like David would be thrive in that ecosystem, whether it's comedy or you know the next Dave is not as funny.
I have a question. Hi Ted. Um so you had talked earlier about how the current state of things is not super sustainable. Uh not a big surprise. And I just wanted to get from your folks' vantage point or from your viewpoint um AI, uh friend or foe, or kind of what are some of the opportunities and scary things in this area. I'll go for I mean um inevitability, right? You know, software moves forward, technology moves forward. So just the ground it in that. I think there are so many conversations to have. Uh there's a movement out there, I have not been in touch with these folks, but I admire their work.
Uh they identify as RSL real simple licensing, and their construct is just like RSS, having some level of mechanism of the you know, here's the metadata that travels with the content. I I question it where that ends up in the long run. Um I think at this moment in time, actually, this is the best answer to your question I think you can give you. There is a pretty prominent substacker, Lenny Richetsky, if I'm not butchering his last name, yeah, Lenny's letter. He is a fabulous uh writer, thinker. I forget what his affiliations were professional, which big tech companies worked at, um, but he's been writing for five years or so, just a week or two ago.
He published on his Substack his 350s corpus of all previously written stuff and all the transcripts of his podcast are being released uh and licensed to anybody with a subscription and a lighter version of it to people not in markdown form and having a contest to see who can create the best stuff off of his IP. That seemed, you know, to imagine the Washington Post doing that. They think you know that they are struggling to figure out with open AI with the you know they'll um negotiate with. I've heard in a few of the earlier panels about Reddit in the New York Times and their relationship with AI in a certain place.
You know, that's Lenny and he is a product person with a certain community doing a certain thing that designed to work for every publisher. But the idea of being eyes wide open about the software's coming over the other, the eyes, the idea of being eyes wide open of what will be the first player multiplayer experience of what could happen at a monetization level between machines, not even humans. I hope that uh more creator journals are thinking about that. I hope the technologists are thinking about that. I think you know, you guys haven't thought about Dave bought by chance, have you?
Or like whatever levels of like how would you mechanize Dave's personality and or use mechanizations right to feed more people to the real human Dave. Um we haven't thought about that yet. Um we don't, you know, uh in our news making, we don't really use AI right now. Our audience is actually very deeply skeptical of it, at least in the video space. Um so we've made a pledge to them that we will not use AI in our script writing and in our video production in our news gathering. Um that's part of our kind of like ethics and transparency promise to our audience.
Um we talk about that a lot. We report on AI weekly, sometimes daily. Um but right now we're not really using it in our reporting. You know, I think what the future holds is an open question, but right as long as our audience right now is reacting to it in the way that they are, especially what they're seeing on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, and sort of like their very guttural reaction to it. I think we will sort of try to be the antithesis of it. I've seen, and you all tell me comedy is one of the things that AI cannot do.
So as long as Dave can do it and A AI doesn't do it well, maybe we'll sort of keep it separate.
And if you haven't seen it, Dave actually has a character who is the AI character to where he kind of regularly kind of you know. Yeah, exactly. Hi, yep. So in the last five years, I feel like we've seen a small resurgence by necessity of like independent media organizations. I'm thinking of like the like 404, defecta, flaming hydro aftermath. They are notably not on protocol. They, you know, uh Ghost has been amazing as like a democratization platform for them, but it's not connected to protocol. So I guess my question would be what would what would be your pitch to them as to uh that might entice them to come over and and start publishing on protocol?
Like what would be the benefit for organizations like that. You know, uh I gave a talk uh at the beginning of the day where I kind of said, hey, I'm here as a journalist, and here's kind of what I know, and here's when I'm building a journalism atlas, making lists of great journalists, and I'm excited to talk to Lauren about her business and kind of stand up here. We're not on protocol necessarily. We're we're very much coming here with a stance of like we're so curious and interested. And that's why the last video has been very inspiring to find some of the folks asking like figuring out what we build in the application layer that allow Lauren to do all the things you just talked about, doing that on protocol, I think you would do in a minute if you thought like, hey, here it is.
But let's find that stuff, I think I'd say. Do you want to anything you would add or speaking for me wonderfully? Um I think one of the other things here really is uh ultimately thinking about both what the incentives are for uh each of these businesses um and what sorts of affordances uh do apps give them that either they can't get anywhere else or are adequate substitutes for the things that they're currently doing. Um so um as we think about these things, like for example, exclusivity on any particular platform is probably a non starter. Um so if you're thinking about that, then the question really is how do you grow a particular audience?
What portion of time do you expect any particular journal journalists to spend with a particular app? What do they get out of that? Um so all of those sorts of RRI questions I think are really important. And thinking about the fact that like essentially all publishing businesses are kind of portfolio businesses now. Um and where are they actually deriving the revenue and how are they trying to think about their time? Um I think we are at time. So thank you so much. I really appreciated this conversation. It's been great.